What do you want?

[Max]

Hey, I know that there are very few guys around here. On top of that, I know that most of the world is set up for us guys. Turn on the TV, listen to the radio, go to a store, and there's all kinds of stuff meant to cater to guys. I fully recognize that PRD is mostly a girl's space. So, while I don't want to take that away, at all, I was thinking it might be a good idea to have a thread where we few men can say what it is we really want. Not react to the girls, just actually say what we want.I do understand that this area is called "Guy's garage, but most of it is still basically us reacting to girls, and there ain't a whole lot about us.
To illustrate what I mean, if you go on any of what I call "Dear Abby" posts, you'll find all kinds of relationship problems, right? and over half the time, there's some discussion of the guy involved, and he ain't here to say anything about it, so we have to guess about whatever the dude is thinking. Likewise, some of the women post about political stuff involving women's rights. They will sometimes in these threads talk about men, and their relationship to women. Or, in this area, Girls will post about stuff that's stereotypically guy's turf, and ask if we're into it- so, again, it's our reaction to the girls.
And so on.
So, I thought it would be useful to have a thread with guys perspectives. Regardless of if it has anything to do with girls or not.
For example- amoung other things, right about now, I'm in pretty dire need of a new job. I'm pretty seriously underemployed. What does that have to do with being a guy- here's what-- when two guys meet for the first time, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the first things that come up is "What do you do?" If you're a guy, and underemployed this is a pretty awkward bit. At least it is for me. So it's affecting my ability to have guy friends, because I'm ducking that question. I don't want to say "I'm tutoring part time, and doing a little freelance work" because that sounds about a half step away from "I'm a complete and total loser" you know? And I really don't think the girls have the same thing going on.
likewise- I believe i'm the only father on the board- maybe that's not true, and if it's not, do tell, but even as single, non-family guys I bet you guys are just as "out" on discussions of Motherhood as me. Hey, I love my boy, and I've been very much a real parent as anybody else, but I can't believe that people can spend so much friggin time on any single topic as Mothers do about their kids- so, it's pretty inevitable that I check out on conversations about motherhood at some point in the conversation. You guys are mostly in your twenties/early thirties- are you running into that, as well? Even worse- are you running into former guy friends who now have a kid and ceased to be guys? As in, all they are talking about is their kid? Even I have fallen into that trap from time to time, and i'm horrified at myself.
How about this- I like machines, of all different types- from cordless drills to Nuclear power plants. There's nothing sexual, nothing to do with relationships about that- I like machines just for the fact that they are cool. Are there any other guys who want to talk about any kinds of machines? Like, shit, man, at this point I'll talk sump pumps, I don't care. I'm just saying that we may want a thread to talk about crap we want to talk about whether it's got jack bone to do with the girls, or not. So, what do you say, or am I off on a tangent that nobody understands, again?

[MeritaViola]

Its not just guys that get bored with moms and their baby jabber. I can't friggin' stand it.

And now, I'll take my leave from guys garage, and let ya get back to man talk.

[Max]

Its not just guys that get bored with moms and their baby jabber. I can't friggin' stand it.

And now, I'll take my leave from guys garage, and let ya get back to man talk.

I wasn't so stupid as to imagine that a guy would be the first to reply
Hey, BTW- have you defined nachos, yet?

[voiddj]

That's a good question Max and I honestly don't have an answer off the top of my head.

I know nothing about fashion apart from what I like so I find this site quite educational.

I rarely go near the Momma Mayhem section because I know very little about raising children (I have a young niece and nephew and am more than happy to play at being their cool Uncle Tom).

I'm not interested in cars, tools, or what makes things work. I'm not into building things, taking things apart or technology.

I'm a simple fellow with simple tastes and am happy to talk music all day long. Throw in a bit of current affairs and some film talk and I'm happy as larry.

I am definitely at that age where many of my friends are in settled long term relationships, getting married, and/or having kids, and whilst I like the idea of family life I'm too busy (maybe too selfish) just doing what I do to get wound up in it all and that worries me. Am I too independent for my own good?

It would be good to discuss more men's issues and get feedback from the guys of here e.g. the role of men in today's society, our relationship worries, our fears for the future, but us guys just aren't good at that are we?

Sorry if that's not a very well constructed answer. I was just throwing things down off the top of my head. f I have any further thoughts I'll post them up.

[MeritaViola]

Its not just guys that get bored with moms and their baby jabber. I can't friggin' stand it.

And now, I'll take my leave from guys garage, and let ya get back to man talk.

I wasn't so stupid as to imagine that a guy would be the first to reply
Hey, BTW- have you defined nachos, yet?

I have indeed, and I used my "operational definition" of nachos as part of a recent assignment for research methods class I also did one nacho review (which got a bit long winded, but hey... its me...)

[Max]

That's a good question Max and I honestly don't have an answer off the top of my head.

I know nothing about fashion apart from what I like so I find this site quite educational.

I rarely go near the Momma Mayhem section because I know very little about raising children (I have a young niece and nephew and am more than happy to play at being their cool Uncle Tom).

I'm not interested in cars, tools, or what makes things work. I'm not into building things, taking things apart or technology.

I'm a simple fellow with simple tastes and am happy to talk music all day long. Throw in a bit of current affairs and some film talk and I'm happy as larry.

I am definitely at that age where many of my friends are in settled long term relationships, getting married, and/or having kids, and whilst I like the idea of family life I'm too busy (maybe too selfish) just doing what I do to get wound up in it all and that worries me. Am I too independent for my own good?

It would be good to discuss more men's issues and get feedback from the guys of here e.g. the role of men in today's society, our relationship worries, our fears for the future, but us guys just aren't good at that are we?

Sorry if that's not a very well constructed answer. I was just throwing things down off the top of my head. f I have any further thoughts I'll post them up.

Couldn't have asked for a better reply-
That's exactly it- What the hell are Guys issues? Who the hell are we? Etc etc etc- I'd love to just talk music all day long, too- but, of course, what I want to talk about Re: music may not coincide with what others do- for example, taste wise I've not exactly been interested in Hardcore punk Rock. I've been getting more into what could generously be called "Post punk"- everything from kinda- Goth stuff to the stuff that gets called "Post Rock" like Tortoise. Also, I really get into discussing the nuts-n-bolts about music- I'm a guitar player, but more than that I'm a techie- so I think the instruments and equipment used can be really fascinating- Example- the other day I heard some terrible cover band doing a cover of "Let's Go" by the cars and they omitted the synth line altogether, because the keyboard player was on a Fender rhodes- it sounded truly disgusting. I'm not a perfectionist on that stuff, but seriously- a rhodes? yeesh. Since you've got "DJ" in yer username- I'm a technics guy when it comes to turntables- dual 1200's, accept nothing less!
As for being too wound up for family life- I dunno- it sometimes makes me wonder how any male gets the bug to have kids- I mean genetically we're meant to leave our genetic mark, but that's about it. I never had the desire to do that, and though I do love my son- he was a complete accident on my part (well, sabotaged birth control, really) and I had no intentions of raising him, but then, there he was- his mother's a nightmare- so the question was- do I leave him to rot or do I raise him? I figured it was better to raise him, but I cannot say I'd judge a man too harshly who decided differently. If the girls aren't around, I wonder how many kids would be left for the wolves to raise- seriously- I don't think it's exactly in our breeding to raise kids- definitely wasn't in mine- so it confuses me how anyone really goes in willingly to raise the kid.
Yeah- and I'm with you- What is a man's role in society? Seriously- if I'm some kind of fucked up sexist- which don't get me wrong I may or may not be- then what should be different about me? or vice versa- what do I do that's so stereotypically manly? I don't get it, and I think the women are only too glad to tell us- but then comes the wondering if that's really what a man should be, or just what a woman thinks a man should be- you know?
And yes, I have spent massive amounts of energy trying to get the approval of women, so yeah, I know the "right" stuff to say or do, but is that me? Really? You know whar i mean?

[voiddj]

Yep I've got a pair of Technics 1210s and a Pioneer CDJ 800 and just love to mix. However my tastes are so broad and my CD collection growing by the day that I can never get bored of music or new discoveries. That's one reason I'm still a fan of Myspace, as opposed to Facebook. I've found so much unique and interesting music to listen to and it's good that you can actually touch base with bands.

I think men have a nurturing instinct as well as women. However I think we're more likely to let our children do their own thing. Sure we will be protective, possibly moreso than mothers, but when it comes to learning the lessons in life I think we'd be more than willing to let our children learn from their mistakes.

I don't believe it's any longer a man's world (which of course isn't a bad thing). However I do think some elements of maleness are being stifled and that in some ways the whole equality lobby are out to destroy some of the last bastions of maleness whilst not giving equal rights to men who wish to cross over into areas largely dominated by women.

And what's with the whole seeking the approval of women thing and why do we feel the need to do this? Also why do I feel the need to be independent and strong? Women always seem to say they want men to show their emotions, but when we do we're often dumped on the scrapheap as being weak.

Sorry to take off on a bit of a tirade there and to have more questions than answers. Also I'm not being sexist and hope I don't come across that way. This thread just sent my mind off on all sorts of tangents. Please kindly do retort to my ramblings.

[Max]

Yep I've got a pair of Technics 1210s and a Pioneer CDJ 800 and just love to mix. However my tastes are so broad and my CD collection growing by the day that I can never get bored of music or new discoveries. That's one reason I'm still a fan of Myspace, as opposed to Facebook. I've found so much unique and interesting music to listen to and it's good that you can actually touch base with bands.

I think men have a nurturing instinct as well as women. However I think we're more likely to let our children do their own thing. Sure we will be protective, possibly moreso than mothers, but when it comes to learning the lessons in life I think we'd be more than willing to let our children learn from their mistakes.

I don't believe it's any longer a man's world (which of course isn't a bad thing). However I do think some elements of maleness are being stifled and that in some ways the whole equality lobby are out to destroy some of the last bastions of maleness whilst not giving equal rights to men who wish to cross over into areas largely dominated by women.

And what's with the whole seeking the approval of women thing and why do we feel the need to do this? Also why do I feel the need to be independent and strong? Women always seem to say they want men to show their emotions, but when we do we're often dumped on the scrapheap as being weak.

Sorry to take off on a bit of a tirade there and to have more questions than answers. Also I'm not being sexist and hope I don't come across that way. This thread just sent my mind off on all sorts of tangents. Please kindly do retort to my ramblings.

Glad you've got taste in gear, there! I'm not a DJ in the sense of a Hip Hop DJ, but, well (not that I'm comparing myself to him) Doc Marten was a friend, years ago, so I got a bit of the bug.
As for finding new music- I've given up on 90% of the mainstream, so I'm checking out sites like myspace, jamendo, pure Volume, Oddio Overplay, Netlabels.org, and so on- I'd prefer to be one of less than a thousand who've ever had to endure some horrible ramblings from some polish guitarist than to be one of the millions listening to yet another coldplay single, you know? I might be misreading your taste a bit, but have you seen www. Post-punk.com? Awful lot of links to gothy-coldwave-darkwave electronica and not bands- really good stuff if you really love Joy Division, the Sisters of Mercy and the Cure.
Now, on to men-
Certainly, some men have the nurturing instinct- just like some women have the instinct to beat people up- outliers are always there- and no, I don't think it makes anyone less of what they are to be an outlier. I think of it a bit like sexuality- to be homosexual doesn't make one less of a man- even if we're talking about a really effeminate homosexual- that's part of the overall male experience, too- but it is an outlier- I don't think most guys are nurturers by instinct. That's not to say they're not capable- just that it's not their instinct.
Not a man's world? Well, insofar as the world has to be assigned a gender, it might be a "man's world" but I've thought for years that such phrasing obfuscates what's closer to the truth- the world belongs to a tiny percentage of extremely wealthy people. They may or may not be white, but they usually are, they may or may not be male, but they usually are. Whiteness, or maleness, for the average, not the bosses- the workers- doesn't necessarily confer the same power as I'm told it once did. I'm not entirely convinced it ever did. An extremely wealthy Black woman, say Oprah, still holds a hell of a lot more cards than even a fairly well-to-do White Male. Otherwise John Edwards might have done better in the campaign for the presidency. Ultimately, power is power, no matter who has it, and that's one of the reasons I never cottoned to "identity politics" too much.
As for equal rights- as a formerly single father- yeah unequal rights cuts both ways.

I can't speak for you, but I do not fully understand why I've got some macho tendancies, and at the same time crave female approval as much as i do. I mean here's the sorry state of things- I'm macho enough that I won't ask for directions, but I'm craving my wife's approval so much that to avoid needing to ask for directions, I memorize maps before we travel. Yes, insanity like that! And sure, I've been a bit of a headknocker, a bit of a yob, and so on- but unless I've got a girl, I feel like less of a man. And, yes, I'll put myself into twisted little knots to make sure i've got a girl. Fortunately, I've got a wife who doesn't require such knots, but she still doesn't quite understand the male ego, you know? She understands quite a lot but she gets confused as to why I'll fix the WC myself, rather than have the plumber come 'round- it's not about money, even if i use that excuse- it's that i'll bested by the plumber- I mean, we all have the conversation about something- you finally cave, and ask somebody for help with a problem, and they offer a confidant, smooth solution, and they say "See? that was easy!" and you just cringe inside, because you feel bested- I get that kind of ego bruise from household repairs, or car repairs, or computer problems, or... you get the point- my male pride is wrapped up in all the things I can do. And no, I don't fully understand why.

[Brutus]

Honestly, Max, I didn't read yer entire first post (or the rest of the comments for that matter), due to my inability to read long passages. So I'm sorry if I say something that already has been said.

I did read something about you saying something about talking to guys who all they talk about is there kids and such or something to that effect. In a way, I actually in quite the opposite situation. I have graduated college (as many of you know) and work as an apprenticing carpenter. Most of my friends are still working in call centres, dishpits, or warehouses. I have a Monday to Friday thing going on, a vehical, bills, and the like. They are all still screwing around with next to no responsibilities, and here I am busting my ass for my career, day in day out. I feel as if they dont understand the calue of true, honest, hard work. Back breaking labour. It will be two days after pay day and Ill ask if they want to go out for a beer, and the response I get is "sorry dude, I am broke". I find it hard to keep my friends because all they do is play video games when they aren't at work, and that as never been my thing. Don't get me wrong, I still love going out and acting like a crazy person. But Monday to Friday, I am married to my job, and it sucks. I am becoming one of those "live to work" guys, and it kinda sucks. But... it's all for the good. I am banking mad cash right now, and am saving up to go to a psycho fest in Europe some day. Hell, I'd love to be a "work to live" guy again, but shite, those days have past for me.

When I first read, what do you want... I thought of a few things, and something from your original post did strike me as interesting. You said a lot of things cater to males. And I do believe this is true aswell. However, I like to give the example of the mall. As I stated before, I am making mad bank, and have a good stock pile of disposable income. However, when I go to the mall, I hit up the dollar store for things the house needs, and maybe the video/music shop and grab a cheapo DVD or two. I find it very hard to get things in the mall that I like, but my female counterparts can basically walk into almost every store in the mall and find something that is geared towards females. There is like a 85 to 15% ratio of female to male esque products available. And that kinda sucks, and frustrates me. I know, I know... a punker in a mall... blasphemy! Whatevs, its got a dollar store and an HMV... so buzz off "Im punker than thou" people.

Also, Max, Im about to change to my winter tires, and have obtained a torque wrench from work. And am going to hook it up to a compressor and get that shit done in mear minutes as opposed to the hour it takes me if I do it by hand... do you know what amount of foot pounds I would put my lugs to if I were driving a 4 door Neon with steal rims? I think its 80, but maybe you can help me out haha.

[Brutus]

whoa longest post evvvvveeeeeer

[Max]

Honestly, Max, I didn't read yer entire first post (or the rest of the comments for that matter), due to my inability to read long passages. So I'm sorry if I say something that already has been said.

I did read something about you saying something about talking to guys who all they talk about is there kids and such or something to that effect. In a way, I actually in quite the opposite situation. I have graduated college (as many of you know) and work as an apprenticing carpenter. Most of my friends are still working in call centres, dishpits, or warehouses. I have a Monday to Friday thing going on, a vehical, bills, and the like. They are all still screwing around with next to no responsibilities, and here I am busting my ass for my career, day in day out. I feel as if they dont understand the calue of true, honest, hard work. Back breaking labour. It will be two days after pay day and Ill ask if they want to go out for a beer, and the response I get is "sorry dude, I am broke". I find it hard to keep my friends because all they do is play video games when they aren't at work, and that as never been my thing. Don't get me wrong, I still love going out and acting like a crazy person. But Monday to Friday, I am married to my job, and it sucks. I am becoming one of those "live to work" guys, and it kinda sucks. But... it's all for the good. I am banking mad cash right now, and am saving up to go to a psycho fest in Europe some day. Hell, I'd love to be a "work to live" guy again, but shite, those days have past for me.

When I first read, what do you want... I thought of a few things, and something from your original post did strike me as interesting. You said a lot of things cater to males. And I do believe this is true aswell. However, I like to give the example of the mall. As I stated before, I am making mad bank, and have a good stock pile of disposable income. However, when I go to the mall, I hit up the dollar store for things the house needs, and maybe the video/music shop and grab a cheapo DVD or two. I find it very hard to get things in the mall that I like, but my female counterparts can basically walk into almost every store in the mall and find something that is geared towards females. There is like a 85 to 15% ratio of female to male esque products available. And that kinda sucks, and frustrates me. I know, I know... a punker in a mall... blasphemy! Whatevs, its got a dollar store and an HMV... so buzz off "Im punker than thou" people.

Also, Max, Im about to change to my winter tires, and have obtained a torque wrench from work. And am going to hook it up to a compressor and get that shit done in mear minutes as opposed to the hour it takes me if I do it by hand... do you know what amount of foot pounds I would put my lugs to if I were driving a 4 door Neon with steal rims? I think its 80, but maybe you can help me out haha.

See? People haven't asked you what you want too often, have they?
Yeah, the balance twixt work and life is difficult to come by- and it gets worse when you've got kids. I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but I do know this- reserve at least an hour a day to get away from everyone. Otherwise, you go insane.
As for knowing what work is- does hanging drywall count? How about Welding? how about humping amps? If they count, then, yeah, I know. As the Who put it: eleven hours in the tin pan, god there's got to be another way!
As for finding stuff at the mall- I actually don't like malls, and, at our local mall, when I do go, I can be found in one of two places- the Barnes & Noble, reading, or in the Hollister store, looking at the screens showing a live feed from Huntington Beach, Ca. Other than that, I'm at the mall to buy something for somebody.
As for your torque question- Aluminium or steel rims? AL rims=70-75 ft/lbs Steel=85-90. Much more than that, and they'll be a bit too hard to unscrew....

[voiddj]

I'm with you both on the whole Mall situation. There is literally nothing I like in the big stores and I've given up completely on Oxford city centre as its dire so so I tend to buy most things off the internet, especially clothing and gits.

On the Work/Life balance issue I know people with and without kids my age who just don't seem to have a clue how to manage both. My brother for example is a slave to his Blackberry and just can't leave it alone. He doesn't sem to do time off. A lot of people I know are content to sit at home on the weekend, maybe do a bit of shopping, but wouldn't even think about going something a little more exciting like going to a gig, club, or even a bar, or do something cultural like visit a museum and I'm the wierd one because I'm out nearly every weekend around the country. I know people have different tastes, but life is for living and the time off we get is scarce.

Onto a new point about our female counterparts, is anyone else really crap at reading signals and pissed that it seems to be the man's role to do the asking out?

[Suzette]

Onto a new point about our female counterparts, is anyone else really crap at reading signals and pissed that it seems to be the man's role to do the asking out?

I have to stand up for my fellow girls for a minute Life would be so much easier if guys would learn to say yes or no. No matter what you ask them, most guys will only say something that sounds like 'mm ehmm' .. which isn't going to make girls want to ask you out.

[voiddj]

I have to stand up for my fellow girls for a minute Life would be so much easier if guys would learn to say yes or no. No matter what you ask them, most guys will only say something that sounds like 'mm ehmm' .. which isn't going to make girls want to ask you out.

I'll acknowlege that there is truth in what you say. I think both sexes need to learn to read each other better and to communicate more openly, but I don't think the latter is going to happen.

[Max]

On the Work/Life balance issue I know people with and without kids my age who just don't seem to have a clue how to manage both. My brother for example is a slave to his Blackberry and just can't leave it alone. He doesn't sem to do time off. A lot of people I know are content to sit at home on the weekend, maybe do a bit of shopping, but wouldn't even think about going something a little more exciting like going to a gig, club, or even a bar, or do something cultural like visit a museum and I'm the wierd one because I'm out nearly every weekend around the country. I know people have different tastes, but life is for living and the time off we get is scarce.

Onto a new point about our female counterparts, is anyone else really crap at reading signals and pissed that it seems to be the man's role to do the asking out?

1. I'm with you- but I've got a few other things that limit the social life- I can't really do smoky, closed in bars all that often- I'm an ex smoker and drinker, and I'm trying to keep it that way. Also, my wife has severe asthma, so if I want to spend time with her, it's gotta be outside, or in a more controlled environment. Finally, I'm getting old enough that hearing loss is a real problem- I used to stick my head right in the amps, now I cannot hang with stuff much over 150 dB. As Mick sang- what a drag, to be old. But, all those caveats taken out, I still do much more than most of the guys my age. Hell, I'm flat , right now- hardly have a farthing- but I still have been to a few shows, gone to a few camping adventures, and shot a whole bunch of 9 ball. I think some have the capacity for it, and some are homebodies. But, "settling down" is more a matter of priorities, rather than an "on/off" switch- I'm pretty settled down- no drunken fights for me, anymore, but that doesn't mean I avoid the pub altogether. Again, I'm pretty clean living, but I've got friends who are anything but clean, and I'll hang out and run around. I'm not the toughest guy, but I still get my bumps playing rugby with a few friends- you know?
2. Crap at reading signals? I'm utter shit at reading them! I've had girls later on tell me they were throwing themselves at me, and not a clue on this end. I've had the "you know yourself what you did" talk more times than I can count, and I still don't know what I did in the first place! Hell, how's this one- I've been having sex with a girl who started making plans, out loud, about what she was going to do the next day, and THAT was my first clue that she didn't care about me, she was just easy! So, I'm with you- I've no idea what any of them are thinking, or what they mean to say- which is precisely why I do usually give vague answers to 'em- because how do you answer a question when you don't know what's being asked?